Heat Capture to mechanical output.

[Converse2]

i have had some history with thermodynamics. According to Boyle's Law one can augment extraction of mechanical power from compressed air by adding heat as in "waste heat" from and internal combustion engine. So let's say you could have a drive train using compressed air (not gears and turning shaft drive line); It seems like this would allow one to add the engine's waste heat before it got to the "mechanical power out" phase of the power flow.

This would be making a new power technology, out of something we have conceived or have known about for quite a long time already. It would be something like extracting most of the exhaust heat and changing it into mechanical before it get out to the "outside air" and is lost for further direct use.

When you add heat to a pneumatic tank you would want to make sure the heat does not effect the structural integrity of the tank, but when heat is added to the compressed air through the wall of the tank or other heat transfer means. It does not simply make the internal air hotter, it adds total potenial energy or total usable power that can come out. Or with a finite amount of air, you can still get augmented power-out or total energy out. Seems like the trick would be to add as much heat energy as possible from the internal combustion stage of the engine.

We have all these new higher tech material that can be used. We have carbon fiber tanks. We might be able to use super-heated water to transfer exhaust heat, or there is the very promising crystalized carbon or industrial diamond shapes to transfer heat. (It is not common information, but industrial diamonds have 5 times more the ability to conduct heat energy than any other substance). i don't have a conceptual atomic model for that, but whatever... electrons become super efficient at moving heat energy in the diamond crystal lattice.

The initial proof or experiment would be similar to whatever experiment Boyle used in determining Boyle's law. You heat and enclosed container and watch how the pressure changes.

Since the energy storage in the tank will be designed to save instead of quit heat, whatever heat energy is lost will be "accidental" and/or through mechanical output. It seems like it could be done to create an energy capturing engine using pneumatic storage instead of battery storage.

i don't have the wherewithall to work this concept. The idea might be to create an engine that would have a far better "total energy use through air compression and then use that same compressed air to capture the heat from the internal combustion engine and turn it into heat enhance power before it reached the point of mechanical power-out.

i think there is a great deal of promise in the power technology of using compressed air to capture heat energy and turn it into electric or mechanical power. It's like a giant spring that can be augmented with heat.

Heat capture tech is something we tend to ignore because it is either too "complex or dangerous" but they have pneumatic cars in France, but apparently just in a " charge and drive" kind of way. Seems hybridizable to me.

While there's not a great deal to know about the physical gas laws that allow for this the materials, methods, and process to achieve this might be effortful. Knowing what we know, it seems like it could be done. Pneumatic energy storage would be more ideal than batteries for local energy storage from wind or solar capture for home use.

The point is there are different options that are available, but pushed out of the way because wasting or throwing away energy is the way we do it now.

[Converse2]

The reason i posted this idea here is that if it has "iron" or conceptual integrity, it will likely only be started by people who work with object shapes and machining. Rich people are going to want to sifle energy efficiency until there is no more and then they will want to go with another bad idea. This is an unhappy side effect" of the nature of "status lust", or desire to control energy markets.
Now there is the possibility of generating our own energy and holding the heat energy for heating in water in a simple insulated plastic tank. Somehow it make "official types" seem less important if things are done in a more efficient way. Having extra water stored for personal use would, in no way, be a bad thing. If you could use it to augment energy use efficiency that would be all the better.
Perhaps the planet is in peril from over heating due to CO2 or H2O emissons from internal combustion engines or jet engines or whatever.
So what about generating your own electric by wind, solar or methane? If you use methane you will use less than a coal powered plant and it would be clean, less, and without large grid or transmission concerns. It is just a method for using hydrocarbon based energy much more efficiently before the heat escapes. There is also saving cold or "relative energy deficiency", as ice or cold water in and insulated tank. The point is there are many different ways to produce and save energy from sun, wind, or other.
The standard eco-dogma of present day says that CO2 is the main atmospheric green house gas. This disregards water as a green hous gas. When you burn methane or CH4 you get of one CO2 and 2 H20s. If you generate your own electric you can catch the water and use is like clean water.
This is an energy solution using available technology and materials in a way that have not yet been employed. Centralized production of energy as in coal or nuclear is somewhat alright, but maybe disatrous in a longer run for atmospheric considerations. Obviously at one point in the distant past, all this carbon that we mine for energy today somehow must have been hanging out on the surface of the earth or in the atmostphere. It seems like we are trying to put it back into the atmosphere even though we don't think about it much.
If you had an backyard methane electric generator you could save the heat, and the waste water generated would be like distilled water. This would decentralize electric generation and kick up the overall usage efficiency at least two times and maybe four times on your personal home use.
It seems like.. over a period of time we might as people capture or manufacture as methane most of the energy we use and will not have to dig or bore for it..
The only thing is if we use available capturable energy much more efficiently the population will continue to expand geometrically. Or maybe not.

[Converse2]

Well.... How would a pneumatic drive line work?

Here's guessing.

1. The engine might look like a v6 configuration where 2 of the cylinders might be dedicated compressor cylinders.
2. There would have to be a primary pneumatic tank that would be charged with cool air.
3. There would have to be a second in line, somewhat lower pressure tank, where any intital heat addition could occur.
4. There would likely have to be 2 final heating tanks that would absorb as much heat as possible before sending is charge to the pnumatic output motor.
5 What is the best way to get the most heat from the internal combustion part of the engine into the final pneumatic output?
6. Since water is the best thing for heat transfer; one might be able to superheat some water at the exhaust manifold and inject it into the final-output pressure-tank The exhaust manifold would be really very hot. It could heat water to a really quite hot temp as well, and this could be injected directly into the final stage pnumatic tank become gas and heating the pressurized air that was already there. Hence the system would become part pneumatic drive and part steam engine, while most of the exhaust heat could be shunted into the final output pressure tanks.
7. This seems to make conceptual sense to me. You would have to have 2 tanks in line and a third set of tanks to capture heat and alternately push the final motor. Then you would have to have a superheated water injection system, that would take heat from the exhaust manifold and move it by way of super heated water to steam injection in the final heating tank. There might be a better way to do it, but i don't know what it might be yet.

If anyone thinks i'm bonkers, maybe they would say so and why.

[Converse2]

OK so the next most likely thing to invent or conceptually configure would be the internal combustion engine heat extraction and movement techniques. We don't want the heat to escape directly to the atmosphere so liquid heat extraction/cooling we gratefully already have.
The next source of heat capture would be at the exhaust manifold/exhaust pipe. Since this area can become very hot, it could heat distilled water in a kind of high pressure boiler configuration that could inject superheated water or steam into the final pressure tank adding most of its heat to the already heated-pressurized air.
Normally we do not see or work with high pressure steam; because it carries too much heat it is much more dangerous than hot air. I am pretty sure that one of the properties or attributes of water is that it has higher heat capacity than all other substances in all forms. Plus it will cool in expanding during a power stroke. I don't know how to balance the heats and pressures. The basic principle would be to transfer as much heat as possible from the engine into the drive-pressure tanks, using water for heat capture, heat transfer, and finally heat and pressure dissipation into the final drive-pressure tanks. So, most of that heat energy is changed into "mechanical-power-out" energy.
What would happen is; when you start up the engine motive power would be mostly air drive, but as it began to heat, the heat energy would be converted by heating the pressurized air in the pneumatic drive line. Without the judicious use of water this process might be too difficult since heat exchange problems might be too great until some heat exchange technologies could develop. The combination of steam and compressed air seems like it would work well in pushing a pneumatic drive motor. What we would probably be looking at is a superheated drop of water being injected into a tank of compressed air to rapidly enhance the mechanical output power. With what might be considered to be a small amount of water you may well get a maximized heat transfer effect after the heat and pressure get high enough. There would likely be a preferred heat and pressure level as well as a maximized flow rate for heat transfer. If necessary, water could likely be captured at the far end of the exhaust system to be use for heat the heat transfer aspect of the heat capture system.
The whole point is to use fire better than “cavemen”; even that TV caveman who seems functionally intelligent. I am sure a caveman would like a better way to use fire whereas modern people are more or less indifferent because they do what they’re told. The concept of heat capture seems like it would give you a powerful engine that uses less fuel and might be good for new kinds of personal vehicles, but would probably be good for our regular style of vehicles.

[Converse2]

A big part of the heat capture pneumatic drive train, would be heat collection where there is the most waste heat. The would be at the exhaust manifold. It's very hot coming out of the engine: How do you capture it and use it. You would probably like some nice volume where the exhaust gasses could collect and exchange heat to to steel tubes filled with distilled water, that will collect and move the maximum amount of heat energy toward the final pneumatic/steam drive tanks. Short of finding a way to use industrial diamond for conducting heat, steal tubes that could withstand pressure seem like they might do the trick. And that might be inexpensive and simple as well.
Could an injection system be devised that is regulated by something as simple as a valve with spring operated resistance. Once the heated water reaches a certain heat, then it will push in to the drive tank. We could probably be more sophisticated than that.
That could be one way of moving/exchanging heat energy.
Next time i will try to come up with another kind of heat exchange system to transfer heat into the pneumatic air after it passes out of its colder or first compression phase.

[Converse2]

What we are trying to achieve with the heat capture part of our engine is the addition of heat to compressed air as it flows toward the final heating reservoir tanks. We will have an intermediate reservoir tank where we will try to add heat from the exhaust line and engine block.
This might require a couple creative heat transfer inventions. It could be quite alot, If the cooling liquid were pressurized somewhat it might be raised to perhaps 250 F and then shunted into the second in line pressure tank with a radiator device of yet-to-be determined shape or configuration.
If the first reservoir cool tank starts off at less than 100 F we might be able to add a large amount of the engine block and exhaust heat dispersing into the moving compressed air of the second tank. i am pretty sure this might kick up the total potential energy in that tank by about 1/3.
The advantage that we have here is the fact that the air in that tank would not only be moving across the radiator, but it would be compressed and would pick heat off the interface much better than if it were 1 atm of pressure.
The third set of pressure reservoir tanks would accept further energy and pressure by an injection of super heated steam that is directed from the exhaust manifold heat interchange interface.
We would have a first (cold air reservoir) charged by the internal combustion engine. This would feed the second tank to a lower pressure when the engine block heat would be transferred and the total energy might be expanded by 1/3, and this tank would feed the power-out tanks that are also being heated and pressurized with super heated steam from the exhaust manifold heat.
This way most of the heat frome the internal combusion engine would be transferred to the charged pneumatic tanks, and hence turned into mechanical power out.

[Converse2]

As the compressed air begins its heat capture mission as while progressing toward the final transducers. (yes there can be multiples) . It goes from cold and highest pressure and pushes forward into the somewhat lower pressure while being heated. The positive attributes are: 1. The air is moving forward and can be guided via "jets" toward and heat exchange (hot) surface. (That is to say; turbulance for suface contact will be part of the built in system of heat capture under pressure) If this process needs some enhancement it can be prodded by jets of steam heat from the manifold boiler. (some extra gas molecules of water will augment any heat transfer.) 2. There is highly compressed air moving through and getting hotter or picking up more total energy while moving forward. (as long as pressure stays greater at the beginning rather than the end where it becomes mechanical energy it will continue to collect or be infused with heat and move forward. 3. Right off hand, i would say that high pressure/density air has much greater abiliy to pick up heat energy than 1 atm air. (some of these things must be imagined because it is like the inside of a boiler) a place where you only want to imagine and never want to go. (it's the inside of an engine.)
So if the pressure were fixed such that there was never a "backflow" that would be the most disirable condition. injecting steam into the final tank may well cause a temporary condition of higher pressure than the source pressure, so the pathway beween the tanks could use a pressure stop flow valve going backward, or that will close while the pressure pushes the pressure motor/motors and flow can begin again.
The desired condition or dyamic is for pressurize air to move forward while picking up whatever waste he can be pushed into it with heat transfer techniques. (Heat transfer across a surface, and extremely hot steam injection into the final pressure tanks.)
Of course the the engineering will have to be done correctly, but with modern materials and machining all that i am describing should be inventable or manufacturable with ease.
i understand that compressed air alone engines are popular in some places (like France) The obvious advange is (clean air out). Compress air alone is something like a big spring. Although these (with simple air pressure) must work well or they would not be used. The heated air would expand and cool during the power stroke of the output motor, and all the heat put into the system would tend to diminish in the gas exansion. If this is so then a staged device might work well for this. Any extra heat could be shunted toward the drivers seat for warming in winter.

[Converse2]

i just thought of this technique for efficent heat transfer from the engine heat to the first heat exchange tank. There would be one tube for the hot coolant that could circuit around withing the second pressurized tank, but instead of having a side by side heat exchanger with pressurized air, it could likely be shortened by staging it with multible jets of air being directed through a sided by side tube over a distance where the cool air would extract some of the heat and then the next jet of cool air would exctract the next fraction of heat and then be expelled into the tank and then several of these could extract most of the engine heat before the coolant was directed back to the internal combustion side or heat exchange from the internal combustion side. The temperature differential is one of the more critical factors in heat exchange across a conductive barrier. Naturally the best material to use for the heat exchange interface may well be something with crystal carbon or industrial shaped diamond, since it is 5 times more heat conductive than any other substance, and likely impervious to chemical erosion or wear physical wear. i am not really sure, but tube shapes would work well if that could be manufactured. You have to figure that 2/3 of the total power of the initial fuel heat can cross into compressed air using either a surface to air heat exchange method or steam injection. The whole idea is to get a maximized amount of engine waste heat into the final air output. Whatever can transfer the most total heat and therefore produce the most energetic pressurized air is the most disired condition.
Once the waste heat is captured in the compressed air it is than more energetic or powerful than before. As long as the heat does not excape before it reaches its end point.

[billnohio]

WTF

[blkcat3113]

bill, you took the words right out of my mouth!!!!! WTF???????????

[garyc42660]

my thoughts exactly..WTF is this guy talking about

[billnohio]

I've been sit'n back think'n maybe this is a solicted article.But man,each entry is so long it hurts my eyes.....HAS ANYONE SEEN MY MAHHBLES?????

[Mutiny]

Short of finding a way to use industrial diamonds for conducting heat, I relied on my inapt skill of ignore to direct my attention from the dissipation of his maximized verbal waste! Although scientific, his nuances have been using up otherwise useful forum space. Running this forum isn’t cheap. Delete this thread!

[blkcat3113]

damn it jim!!!!! I'm the ships doctor, not a rocket scientist!!!!!